We kick God out of our schools, our homes, our public buildings and our lives. Then we wonder why everything is going to shit.

To analyze your point of view, you seem to believe that, prior to the secularization of public school curriculum in the latter 20th century, things were not �going to shit.� This seems to be a very uninformed point of view, considering the great tragedies that befell American society while its public schools were relatively still �Christianized.� The civil war, great depression, and world wars may be considered for starters. Furthermore, there has been a steady upward trend in life expectancy and overall quality of life in America since this secular �turning point� you refer to. Among these measurable upward trends is the steady trend in the prevalence of education in our society�which is, incidentally, the very reason why fundamentalist Christianity is no longer considered a proper foundation for our public school curriculum by the majority of Americans.

I really could care less if you are a Godless person. Hell awaits you.

I suspect that you aren�t prepared to offer any sort of proof for this morbid notion that you adhere to.

The values that are important to me are the ones of the ten commandments, some of which by the way are the basis of our laws.

Intriguing�so you believe that all labor performed on a Saturday is profane (punishable by death actually, according to Biblical law) and that it is just to punish children for the crimes of their parents and grandparents? Both of these teachings are based in the passage in the book of Exodus that you refer to as �the ten commandments.�

God needs to be in our Schools, our government and our lives, including yours.

By saying that your god �needs� to be in all these places, you imply that this god is not currently in them. Isn�t that a rather limited concept of a deity: one that can only exist in places where human beings allow that god to be? By this reasoning, if the UN passed a resolution banning your god from this planet, then I guess that whole thing about the millenial reign of Christ on earth would be down the shitter, ey?

"I said it is my responsibility to support him, thereby supporting the country."
-BAHHH!! BAHHH!!! that line alone proves you are a sheep. show me where in the constitution that support of the president is equated to supporting the country. hes supposed to be serving us, not the other way around.

"I have my doubts that anyone outside a military conflict have the remotest clue as to what goes on in a fire fight."
-so then you DO doubt W, cause lord knows hes never been in one.

"Second, I spent 14 years in the service of this country, been to the Gulf during war and have a big warm spot in my heart and ideas for the military."
-so then you ARE going to vote for Clark, since hes a lot closer to the military then W is?

"We as a nation are fat and lazy and the rest of the world hates us because we have pissed away our clout and power by letting too many people make our decisions for us."
-hypothetical scenario. you decide to kill your best friend. everyone you know tells you thats a bad idea and not to do it. ya think they might be on to something, or do you just ignore EVERYONE and do it anyway? how would you like it if only 1 person ran the entire country? thats why we things like the congress, so we have checks and balances.
one person should not have the only say, especially when it involves the entire US population.

"When I was in school, you said the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. If you didn't want to say either you stood in the hall.Of course, now, no one says these so you don't have to stand in the hall and feel bad about yourself."
-perhaps youve heard of seperation of church and state? no?

"I am an AMERICAN. I am not Italian-American, German-American, African-American or anything else. I am an AMERICAN, if there were more Americans in this country, there would be less problems in the world."
-man, there is this organization you would LOVE! they are called the World Church of the Creator, and they would LOVE to have you as a member. they are all about rounding up these darn forigners and either deporting them or executing them. gotta keep that white race pure, ya know. oh and by the way, unless you are native american, you came from england, germany, italy, etc.

"We kick God out of our schools, our homes, our public buildings and our lives. Then we wonder why everything is going to shit."
-yep, Matt Hale would love to have you as a member. time to round up some sand niggers and show em what america is all about, huh? and of course, do it in god's name, yessir!

-by the same token, youve never said youve disagreed with anything he has done either. youve just backed him on every point thus far. so whats the difference? ive admitted every prez has done some boneheaded things. thats called being balanced. when you support everything a president does just because "hes the president", its called being a sheep.

"I said as the elected leader I should support him."

-so you supported carter and clinton? and (worse case scenario) lets say that (*cringe*) Dean get elected-you'll blindly support him too?

"HAve you been in as fire fight? No?"
-nope. and neither has W. and Clark has(took 4 bullets in veitnam). so you are siding with Clark, right?

"I am an American, now, be a good little boy and go read THE REST of that statement, or do you ENJOY creating barriers where none exist?"

-uh dumbass, i quoted your entire line about being an american in my post. i didnt create a nonexisting barrier, you did that yourself with your hyperpatriotic borderline racist statement about and how those who arent "american" are bringing this country down. and as ive already stated countless times, unless you are native american, you are from somewhere else somewhere in your bloodline.

"Separation of Church and State, I have covered this topic before, were you sleeping?"

-nope, just pointing out the fact that you dont believe in it(one of our constitutions, by the way. i thought you said you were an american? maybe not).

"Your last statement runs to racism and stupidity. Not my bag."

you made the comment about non-"americans" ruining this nation, not me. but ill agree with you-it was racist and stupid.

I noticed you never respond to JFM's posts.

Trying reading his responses to you.

Then try to formulate a response to him.

Then try to articulate it.

Then try to write it.

Then post it.

That will demonstrate a capacity to do more than say, "Is to, is to, is to, is to, is to, fuck you, I was in the military, I'm a patriot and you're not."

>>>First of all, I am not a neocon, I am an Independant. That means, I vote for the lesser of two evils, or three or four.

A.) If you're going to be independent, start by learning how to spell it. B.) You vote for the lesser of two evils. Interesting. Me, I sit there and wonder why we have to choose between evils. I'd like some other choices, please. (That's my new motto: "I'd like some other choices, please." Don't be afraid to order off the menu, kids.)

>>Second, I spent 14 years in the service of this country, been to the Gulf during war and have a big warm spot in my heart and ideas for the military.

Good. The military needs people to have a warm spot in their hearts for it. Especially with the assholes we have running things right now. The military needs the support of the people, because it's sure as fuck not getting it from its leaders.

Third, I don't need to quote people or copy and paste or give links to where I formulate my ideas from.

Noted. And appreciated.

Fourth, If you are so afraid of me that you despise me using your tactics in posts, deal with it.

Nobody despises you. You're fun. But if you wanna play, don't be surprised when people play back at you. It's all part of the same game.

Fifth, I am not a sheep that blindly follows anyone, except God.

There's always an "except," isn't there? Good thing you know exactly what your god wants. Must make things easier for both of you.

I have never said that "W" was right. I said it is my responsibility to support him, thereby supporting the country. He is after all, the elected leader.

I don't know where you learned your democracy or republicanism, but the people don't have fealty to the leader -- the leader has fealty to the people. We got rid of that feudalism stuff ages ago. Go Google "Magna Carta."

His father failed the Iraqi people years ago and we suffer the results now.

Do you actually know the recent history of Iraq? I mean really, do you? As you sit there, can you conjure clearly in your head the sequence of events in that country even just since 1950? If you can't, maybe you oughta do some research. You're right that Bush Sr. failed the Iraqi people. But he did that a long time before the Gulf War.

I have my doubts that anyone outside a military conflict have the remotest clue as to what goes on in a fire fight. We have hours, days, even weeks to nit pick the decisions a soldier makes when under fire.

I believe you. Which is why I think it's best to put soldiers under fire as little as possible.

We want diplomacy to work but we don't want to do anything when diplomacy breaks down.

Who wants diplomacy to work? Are you fucking kidding? I mean, surely to god everyone understands that we have the least diplomatic, clumsiest administration in history? There's no way to exaggerate how little they care for diplomacy and how little they understand of it.

We as a nation are fat and lazy and the rest of the world hates us because we have pissed away our clout and power by letting too many people make our decisions for us.

You think the rest of the world hates us for pissing away our power? What? Que? Quoi? They'd love us to piss away our power. They're hoping we do it faster. You're right that we're fat and lazy, but dude, the rest of the world wants to be fat and lazy too.

We are so concerned that we will offend someone that we bend over backwards to ensure that the majority suffer so the minority will not be left out.

What exactly do you mean by "suffer"? Wait, I have a feeling you're about to explain it...

When I was in school, you said the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance. If you didn't want to say either you stood in the hall.Of course, now, no one says these so you don't have to stand in the hall and feel bad about yourself.

Oh, I get it -- by "suffer," you mean that the "majority" has to actually acknowledge the existence of other people's thoughts and feelings. What a cruel, cruel wound. It's a bitch having to think about people other than yourself, isn't it?

(But wait, there's more...)

Out of Jesse's post, that's all you derived? And that's all you can answer to?

You're also an asshole, who has very little to offer this place.

Compared to whom? You?

Lemme tell you a story: In my elementary school I always felt like a freak because I was most definitely the only son of vegetarian Buddhists in the whole building, and there was only one classroom per grade because it was a rural school in a tiny town. But one nice thing about my parents' religious beliefs was that they didn't require any particular negation of anyone else, so it was easy enough to hide. Being vegetarian was harder, but most days I just brought a peanut butter and jelly sandwich from home, it was only on pizza day when I really wanted pizza and I had to ritualistically peel the two obligatory slices of pepperoni off my pizza and give it to someone else that my freakishness was exposed. (The best way I figured out to compensate was to inspire as much competition as possible among people wanting to be the ones to get the extra pepperoni, but that still didn't paper over the basic fact that I didn't eat like anyone else.)

But anyway, this isn't about me. Well, OK, so far it is...but that's because I haven't introduced the tragic heroine yet. Her name was (and, I assume, still is) Penny. She was one of the few people in the class that made me feel like I wasn't at the absolute bottom of the Yertle-the-Turtle social totem pole. First, she was kind of funny looking -- she was bulky, wide and awkward, with eyes that didn't completely line up (a distortion that was magnified by her window-pane glasses). She didn't talk much, and when she did, other kids laughed. Her only real friend in the class was a girl named Jennifer, a heavy girl who was always on crutches for reasons I never fully understood and who was reputed to smell bad (I don't honestly remember if she smelled bad or not, just that that's what people said about her). But as excommunicated as Jennifer was from the class's social order, Penny was the one who, every morning when we stood to sing "My Country 'tis of Thee" (pledge didn't come until jr. high), had to slump toward the door and wait in the hall until we were done. Because Penny was a Jehovah's Witness. None of us had any idea what that meant, except that it meant she had to leave when we sang "My Country 'tis of Thee" and when we had class birthday parties or Halloween parties or Christmas parties. I remember watching Penny get up from her desk and head unquestioningly toward the door. I don't think I had any idea what to think of it at the time, I'm sure I thought something, but I do remember feeling bad every time I saw it.

Does that mean there shouldn't be Halloween parties or birthdays or pledges of allegiance in a school? I don't know. I think it's a really complicated question. But I'm pretty sure nobody can claim any monopoly on "suffering."

We leave the borders wide open, yet strip away the rights guaranteed us so we don't have to "profile" the bad guys. You know how some crimes get solved? Profiling. So maybe it's a bad idea to stop Grandma at the airport and let the suspicious looking muslim pass.

Right, but how do you decide who's "suspicious looking"? That's always where the system breaks down.

I am an AMERICAN. I am not Italian-American, German-American, African-American or anything else. I am an AMERICAN, if there were more Americans in this country, there would be less problems in the world.

Oh bullshit. You are not an AMERICAN. There's no such thing. That's like saying, "I am a UNICORN." We're all hyphenated-Americans. I think you're kind of missing the point of this country. You don't have to be AMERICAN to be American. In fact, it's not even desirable.

We kick God out of our schools, our homes, our public buildings and our lives. Then we wonder why everything is going to shit.

Dude, if you've kicked God out of your life, that's entirely your business. Which is exactly as it should be.

Wake up America, the world is watching, and waiting.

Wake up is right. If they're watching us, maybe we ought to be paying attention to "Them," too. And in case you hadn't noticed, shooting people isn't a particularly effective way of paying attention to them.

Thanks.

That's t' say, send 'em 's long's yew agree...

...t' never, ever say 'nuther ferin word, never speak 'cept in the 'Marikan tounge again (no ferin in-flu-ant-seez'll ever taint er Mother Tounge);

...t' not impart any uv yer ol ferin customs; and don't yew dare celibate 'em! (We only sellabate good ol' 'Marikan days here, like St. Vally-tin's Day, St. Pat-Rick's Day, and Chinese New Year);

...t' not bring 'long any uv that thar nasty ferin food. That'd be stealin jobs away from ur good ol 'Marikan tako stands and pitza joints;

...to never, ever, x-yer-hart-n-hope-ta-die, step-n-a-cracker-break-yer-ma's-back, be proud uv any her'tige ceptin that thar 'Marikan her'tige. Don't go lookin up yer "roots"; yer 'Marikan now, yew don't need t' know nuthin else, boy; don'chew be lookin' fer no Kelt-ick Oregons; yer in the USA now! 'N that goes fer any Germs, Pollocks, Eye-talans, Spanners, an what-hav-yew! This is 'Marka. Never wuz nuthin but Marikans here, n God willin, never will be nuthin but Marikans here!

"I am an AMERICAN, if there were more Americans in this country, there would be less problems in the world."

now what if someone has said this to your family when they had first come over here? pretty cruel, huh? what if someone had put your family on the next boat out of this nation and said, "sorry, all filled up! go back to where you came from"? but they didnt. your family was allowed to stay and put down roots. too bad you cant grant others coming to this nation the same chance your family wanted generations ago. how quickly we forget our roots.

you are an example of hypocrite, plain and simple, with a little racism for flavor. im sure your ancestors would be really proud of your attitude, seeing as that you equate non-americans(whatever that is) as being the seeds of evil in this nation. there is a fine line between nationalism and racism. looks like youd be more than happy to dance on that line, much to your ancestors chagrin, im sure. in fact, lets do some comparisons here;

your statement-"I am an AMERICAN, if there were more Americans in this country, there would be less problems in the world."

another statement i found-"Our nation's problems stem from lack of true americans in this country. the more true americans we have, the less problems america has".

another-"Open borders and amnesty for invaders are the cause of America's problems".

the first quote is from Matt Hale, the second is from a little site called whiterevolution.com. interesting how much they sound like your little comment above. should i do ahead and give the WCOTC your email, so that you can start helping them with their cause, seeing as that you both seem to have the same goals? i really think you guys would hit it off.

As an atheist, it doesn't compute. Your argument, or as you say "clarification", to me, is moot.

What you GREW UP WITH is gone. There needs to be a secular environment for the current younger generation and for all following generations. Praying to God, Allah, or whatever, has no place in our schools or government.

No one should ever be ashamed for not being a Judeo-Christian.

There are many kinds of Americans. Their heritage is just as important as their citizenship. There is nothing wrong with the cultural nomenclature we currently use.

You made a conscious decision to serve in the military. Good for you. But it doesn't qualify you to discuss our current failure in Iraq. I'd prefer to hear a solution from a 4 star general. One's running for President in case you didn't know.

You need to begin to THINK about what values are important to YOU.

Bush has spent more than Clinton ever did.
He has increased the size of government by creating new departments that are ineffective.
We have gone from a $5 TRILLION surplus to a $5 TRILLION deficit!
3 million people have lost their jobs since Bush took office.

If he were your boss or a community leader in your neck of the woods would you want him running the show?

He's disgraced our people, our country, and our reputation globally.

You can be whatever you want. But for the love of YOUR God, don't vote for this moron in 2004!

Now, if that is the case, taking into account the value that you place on the 10 commandments and Jesus and his teachings I have to wonder at some of your attitudes toward your fellow man (or woman, don't want to be sexist here). After all, when asked by the scribes what he considered to be the greatest of the 10 Commandments, Jesus replied that, of course, to love God above all, but the second most important in his opinion was (and I quote from the King James version of the Bible, for I feel you are of the "If it ain't King James, it ain't the Bible" camp):

"And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:31)

Somehow I don't see you loving your neighbor in a statement like:
"I really could care less if you are a Godless person. Hell awaits you."

Or in your lack of concern for the feelings of those poor children who, because of their parents' religious beliefs (as most of them are too young to have their own), are forced to be ostracized and separated from their classmates.

You just don't seem to be very compassionate about anyone, save yourself and those who think exactly like you.

That doesn't seem very Christ-like to me.

The values that are important to me are the ones of the ten commandments, some of which by the way are the basis of our laws.

By some, you mean about 50%. The remainder are religeous dogma prescribing religeous behaviors.

As for God being in schools, do you even know how many of the kids at Columbine were killed because they said they believed in God?

None. They were killed because a couple of kids flipped their lids.

would be great to have a link to that point, i agree. not that H69R will ever be able to do that. of course, how many people have been killed IN the name of god..

H69R has this thing about martyrdom from what I can figure. He likes to think that people die because of their beliefs or to further some fundamental cause. Many have, and many do. But to think that, for exampl, people join the military to die for a cause, or that students' professed belief in god caused them to die is misguided. There are a lot simpler explanations for these things. And crediting (which is indistingushable from blaming) the victim is rarely an accurate portrayal of the events.
~m.

--modified at Sun, Sep 28, 2003, 13:17:49

so why do you choose to ignore "thy shall not kill"? you guys always skip that one...

"some of which"

A good clarification.

Heyo, you realize that pride is a great sin in the eyes of God?

Whatever claims he may make to be being a Christian, the font of neither Christian love nor god's wisdom flows from him. No doubt, he is one of those Christians who "aren't perfect, just forgiven." He must be prayin' ever night about that forbearance...

i thought that was W's special power.

YOU SIR ARE THE PUSSY! God or no God. You spent 14 years in the military and are whining like a little bitch about the state of affairs????!!! Get used to it.