There's no setch thing as


Posted by jfm ® , Sep 23,2003,20:06   MetroBlab

"natural rights." Rights have only ever been secured through codified human government. The whole concept of "rights," while an extremely valuable and important one in our moral and political development, is as man-made and artificial as cotton candy. That doesn't devalue them; lots of manmade things have value. But it does mean that you can count on supernatural forces protecting your rights for you.

--modified at Tue, Sep 23, 2003, 20:15:48


Followups



There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- jfm
Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 23,2003,20:40   MetroBlab

NOPE! Society has the obligation, if it is civilized, of maintaining some of the peace and augmenting the right to self-defense of those who are attacked. Government, US or otherwise, is merely ONE of the artificial constructs created in the belief that SOME government is better than none ... incorrect though it may be. Basically, despite the best intentions to create a government that can govern the people and govern itself, the experiment has failed. The inspiration of freedom however ought ever burn out.

Government might secure our rights(and highly doubtful of that), but our natural rights don't come from government. If that were the case, then our natural rights wouldn't be rights, but mere privileges apt to change according to the whims of whoever is running things. While it is true that our rights may be trampled on, they can never be taken away from us as natural beings.

Children learn the fundamental principles of natural law at a very early age. Thus they very early understand that one child must not, without just cause, strike or otherwise hurt, another; that one child must not assume any arbitrary control or domination over another; that one child must not, either by force, deceit, or fraud, obtain possession of anything that belongs to another; that if one child commits any of these wrongs against another, it is not only the right of the injured child to resist, and, if need be, punish the wrongdoer, and compel him to make reparation, but that it is also the right, and the moral duty, of all other children, and all other persons, to assist the injured party in defending his rights, and redressing his wrongs. These are fundamental principles of natural law, which govern the most important transactions of man with man. Yet children learn them earlier than they learn that three and three are six, or five and five ten. Their childish plays, even, could not be carried on without a constant regard to them; and it is equally impossible for persons of any age to live together in peace on any other conditions.

In most cases, if not in all, mankind at large, young and old, learn this natural law long before they have learned the meanings of the words by which we describe it. In truth, it would be impossible to make them understand the real meanings of the words, if they did not understand the nature of the thing itself. To make them understand the meanings of the words justice and injustice before knowing the nature of the things themselves, would be as impossible as it would be to make them understand the meanings of the words heat and cold, wet and dry, light and darkness, white and black, one and two, before knowing the nature of the things themselves. Men necessarily must know sentiments and ideas, no less than material things, before they can know the meanings of the words by which we describe them

If justice be not a natural principle, it is no principle at all. If it be not a natural principle, there is no such thing as justice. If it be not a natural principle, all that men have ever said or written about it, from time immemorial, has been said and written about that which had no existence. If it be not a natural principle, all the appeals for justice that have ever been heard, and all the struggles for justice that have ever been witnessed, have been appeals and struggles for a mere fantasy, a vagary of the imagination, and not for a reality.


There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- Lysander Spooner
Posted by Michael ® , Sep 24,2003,11:34   MetroBlab

...our natural rights don't come from government

Of course they don't come from the government. They don't exist. There is no such thing. But I'll ask again, where do you think these rights come from?

Look:
Men have the natural right to defend themselves.
vs.
Men defend themselves.

Where's the difference? The latter simply states the way things occur. It's common phenomena and behavior. The former implies some "ought" but does nothing to explain why that "ought" exists. It can't. Hume identified the fallacy you continue to commit as confusing IS with OUGHT.

Phenomena do not translate to rights. Don't confuse necessity and morality.
~m.


There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- Michael
Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 24,2003,17:43   MetroBlab

If natural rights don't exist, then all this talk about justice, civil rights, complaints about attacking Iraq and even deciding to whack
you upside the head are for naught. To talk of such things then would be to waste our times. Why then does a woman complain when she is being gangraped? Why does a person complain when being tortured in prison? Beats me.


There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- Lysander Spooner
Posted by SnM ® , Sep 25,2003,11:39   MetroBlab

Rights are only validated if they are "natural"? Oh, brother.

Shut up. You don't have a clue what you are talking about.


There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- Lysander Spooner
Posted by Michael ® , Sep 25,2003,08:52   MetroBlab

...all this talk about justice, civil rights, complaints about attacking Iraq and even deciding to whack you upside the head are for naught.

That's a lot to try to cover under any umbrella. But we do have rights. It's just that they're a product of social contract, not nature.
~m.


There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- Michael
Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 24,2003,17:41   MetroBlab

If natural rights don't exist, then all this talk about justice, civil rights, complaints about attacking Iraq and even deciding to whack yo upside the head are for naught. To talk of such things then would be to waste our times. Why then does a woman complain when she is being gangraped? Why does a person complain when being tortured in prison? Beats me.

There's no setch thing as

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- Lysander Spooner
Posted by jfm ® , Sep 23,2003,21:13   MetroBlab

You're too hung up on this whole "natural" thing. Spend much time in nature? Tse tse flies are natural. Leprosy is natural. Cats killing the kittens of other cats is natural. I love nature too, but for civil liberties I'll take the Bill of Rights.

Tse tse flies in the face of common sense n/t

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- jfm
Posted by Jhaque Schidt ® , Sep 24,2003,02:19   MetroBlab

http://www.thisisacryforhelp.com/shitquiz.htm

The Bill of Rights

Re:
There's no setch thing as -- jfm
Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 23,2003,22:18   MetroBlab

one that would have not come if it weren't for the insistence of the anti-federalists such as Patrick Henry. Sadly, while the ACLU and the democrats are seen as proponents of civil liberties, they are too being throwing too much crap in the other direction to be of much use. They simply do not understand that privacy rights are no good without property rights, personal liberty is meaningless without economic liberty and without the 2nd amendment, the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th and all the other amendments are meaningless.

this...

Re:
The Bill of Rights -- Lysander Spooner
Posted by jeffx ® , Sep 24,2003,10:10   MetroBlab

...is great engrish:

"...they are too being throwing too much crap in the other direction to be of much use."

oh yeah, and there are no such things as natural rights. nature doesn't give two shits about your rights. you have the right to try and stay alive, and you have the right to die trying.


The Bill of Rights - Hey Lysander.....

Re:
The Bill of Rights -- Lysander Spooner
Posted by lilamy ® , Sep 24,2003,00:04   MetroBlab

I don't own property. I rent. do I have any 'right to privacy'? or am I missing the point?

Be well,
lilamy


The Bill of Rights - Hey Lysander.....

Re:
The Bill of Rights - Hey Lysander..... -- lilamy
Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 24,2003,07:34   MetroBlab

Yes, you have the right to privacy. Here is a link that does a pretty good job explaining the situation even though it is in Oregon

Tenant Privacy and Landlord Access