There are four conceptions of the relation of church and state:1)The church is above the state, a theory held by those who claim their ecclesiastical head is the vicar of Christ on Earth.
ie Middle Ages establishment
2) The church is alongside the state, a theory held by the state churches of various countries.
ie Old Testament Israel
3) The state is above the church, a theory held by the totalitarian governments.
ie 20th century communist countries
4) The church is separate from the state, championed by the Baptists thoughout much of the 17th and 18th century and written into the constitutions of the nations that prize religious liberty
ie United States via the establishment clause in Bill of Rights
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- Lysander Spooner
| Posted by hard69rock ® , Sep 02,2003,02:02 |
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Separation of Church and State is really more simple than people try to make it. At the time of the revolution, whatever the religion of the king, was your religion too. Our for-fathers stated that in our system, you practice what you wish, not what the king dictates. Hence, separation of church and state. It does NOT mean that there can be no monuments of the Ten Commandmens (the basis of all our laws)at the courthouse. It does NOT mean that you cannot have a nativity scene on the courthouse lawn. It means that you you can not be coerced into a religion just because the leader of the country decides to.
Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments and our officials take an oath to GOD to do their job to the best of their ability. There is no conflict of church and state
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- hard69rock
| Posted by spinetingler ® , Sep 02,2003,08:55 |
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>Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments So which part of the Constitution prohibits graven images?
Which ammendment addresses no other god but YWH?
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- spinetingler
based
it's in the dictionary, look it up.
I did not say that our laws come from all the ten commandments. I said our laws are based on them.
As for graven images, people worship money.
nope. You said...
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- hard69rock
| Posted by spinetingler ® , Sep 04,2003,09:56 |
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>Our laws are based on the Ten Commandments the Ten Commandments.
Ten. Not 5 of the ten. Not some of the ten. The Ten. If you want to make the "some of the ten" argument that's fine, but that's not what you said.
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- Lysander Spooner
| Posted by spinetingler ® , Aug 31,2003,01:49 |
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>4) The church is separate from the state, championed by the Baptists thoughout much of the 17th and 18th century and written into the constitutions of the nations that prize religious liberty>ie United States via the establishment clause in Bill of Rights So, how does that work with your earlier assertions that there ought to be a monument to the ten commandments in an Alabama courthouse? I can't quite see the logic in your positions (and I'm a card-carrying big-L Libertarian).
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- spinetingler
| Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Aug 31,2003,08:00 |
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I never said there ought to be a ten commandments monument in the courthouse. If anything, I said that if Moore is so conflicted between being a Supreme Court Justice and obeying God, then he should resign. You can't very well serve two masters. He needs to make up his mind. The monument of course clearly violates the commandment about not worshipping a graven image. Just as one shouldn't have a golden cafe or a painting that purports to be Jesus, Christians need to do away with all these other symbols since they detract from the true meaning of what it is to live out your faith versus worshipping the objects that they come to represent. I always found it odd for Christians to condemn those who have a love of money and fame, but then drag a tree(symbolic of Nordish and Pagan worship) into the sanctuary around Christmas time(another pagan tradition which worships Saturn called Saturnalia, the feast of the birth of Sol.
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- Lysander Spooner
| Posted by spinetingler ® , Aug 31,2003,17:44 |
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>I never said there ought to be a ten commandments monument in the courthouse. I wish we had a functioning Blab search, because I'd like to find your posts that lead me to believe that was your position, and re-read them for better clarity. Either that, or there's an LS impersonator whose postings I've been reading instead. :) As for the rest of your post, I'm with you 100%.
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- spinetingler
| Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 01,2003,16:10 |
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What I had posted earlier about Moore was in reference to a quote in the News-Sentinel: "I must obey God... I cannot violate my conscience." Neither can I. So what have I done or am in the process of doing? I�ve stopped filing out tax forms, I�ve stopped using social security numbers, I cut up my social security card. I won�t apply for government benefits (if there can be said to have any), I won�t vote again, I cut up my voter registration card and I won�t run for public office. Who knows, it just might encourage them. Reading it another way, Moore might be better of resigning. I wrote an article explaining why it would be a good idea to withdraw from the government process.
good luck
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- Lysander Spooner
| Posted by spinetingler ® , Sep 01,2003,20:24 |
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Hope that all works out for you.Are you off the grid, yet? If you're in TN, you're sucking off the gov't teat (TVA).
good luck
Re: good luck -- spinetingler
| Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 02,2003,06:19 |
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Practically speaking, some things are easier than others. Not using a social security number for employment is one matter. Trying to convince a certain millions of people about privatizing TVA and replacing taxes with user fees not to mention spurning some competiton in an alternative energy source is another matter.
good luck
Re: good luck -- Lysander Spooner
| Posted by fluffy ® , Sep 02,2003,08:00 |
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"Trying to convince a certain millions of people about privatizing TVA and replacing taxes with user fees"i believe spintingler was referring specifically to you being off the grid, not everyone else. so how bout it? getting your power from TVA or not?
The Church-State relationship: An overview
Re: The Church-State relationship: An overview -- Lysander Spooner
| Posted by Lysander Spooner ® , Sep 01,2003,16:22 |
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Politics is by its very nature the art of compromise. Even a professing Christian in politics is going to have to compromise Christian principles at times. Ashcroft's supporters even pointed out that when he was governor of Missouri, he efficiently established a state lottery system in spite of his religious opposition to gambling. The state voted to establish a lottery, and it was up to him to see that it was carried out. As Attorney General of the United States, he would need to enforce the abortion laws on the books.� See what happens when Christians get involved in government?
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